old school Campy Shamal vs. Zipp 808

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old school Campy Shamal vs. Zipp 808

Postby acoggan on Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:59 am

I was intrigued by the results that Alex obtained when comparing a Shamal against other wheels as described in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=205

and therefore borrowed this late-1990s Campy Shamal front wheel from my friend Jim Martin to test using my usual approach:

Image

Letting the intercept "float", the results were:

Zipp 808:

CdA = 0.241 +/- 0.003 m^2
Crr = 0.00345 +/- 0.00029

Campy Shamal:

CdA = 0.240 +/- 0.003 m^2
Crr = 0.00365 +/- 0.00067

So, seemingly a very slight edge to the Shamal. However, both wheels were fitted with new Bontrager Aerowing TT tires that were purchased at the same time and weighed within a couple of grams of each other, both were inflated to the same pressure immediately before testing using the same pump, and the tests were done back-to-back on the same day under essentially constant environmental conditions. One could therefore argue that fixing the intercept using the average of the two sets of experiments would be a better approach - if you do that, the picture reverses:

Zipp 808:

CdA = 0.240 +/- 0.003 m^2
Crr = (fixed at 0.00355)

Campy Shamal:

CdA = 0.241 +/- 0.003 m^2
Crr = (fixed at 0.00355)

Thus, my overall conclusion is that it is basically a wash, at least when both wheels are fitted with narrow, aerodynamically-designed tires and tests are performed at/near 0 deg of yaw. It is quite possible, however, that a significant difference would exist under other conditions (with the 808 presumably out-performing the Shamal).

As for why my results seemingly differ from Alex's (who in some comparisons found the Shamal to be faster than an 808 or a front disk, but in other tests found it to be slower), I do not know. It could be due to differences in the way the tests were performed (e.g., higher average yaw angle on the track), or it could be due to the fact that Alex's wheels were fitted with very similar, but not identical, used tubulars, which could have varied in either their rolling resistance or their aerodynamic properties.

(BTW, to make certain that I was really comparing apples-to-apples, for each of the runs I calculated the development of the fixed gear that I used based on the gear ratio, my cadence, and my speed as measured at the front wheel - on average, the difference between the two sets of experiments was only 0.1%, i.e., the circumferences of the two front wheels were apparently within 0.1% of each other. Nonetheless, I corrected for this trivial difference anyway.)
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Re: old school Campy Shamal vs. Zipp 808

Postby whodesigns on Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:04 pm

I noticed you have the 12 spoke version Shamal, did Alex test the 12 or the 16 spoke version?
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Re: old school Campy Shamal vs. Zipp 808

Postby acoggan on Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:27 am

whodesigns wrote:I noticed you have the 12 spoke version Shamal, did Alex test the 12 or the 16 spoke version?


Good question - Alex?

(As it so happens, Jim also has a 16 spoke model. Based on all of the available data, though, I suspect that four more spokes would not make a measurable difference, at least outside of a wind tunnel.)
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Re: old school Campy Shamal vs. Zipp 808

Postby whodesigns on Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:30 pm

I have the 16 spoke version as well which is a great wheel, the 12 spoke ones were a little fragile, especially the rears, even Marco Pantani did not use one in the tour in 98, and used the 16 spoke Vento which was the same as the discontinued 16 Shamal.

I have had mine in the wind tunnel, but never have done any back to back testing against this wheel to confidently state any differences. Subjectively I believe they are fast and still race with it sometimes.
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Re: old school Campy Shamal vs. Zipp 808

Postby Alex Simmons on Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:06 pm

acoggan wrote:
whodesigns wrote:I noticed you have the 12 spoke version Shamal, did Alex test the 12 or the 16 spoke version?


Good question - Alex?

16

I've put the day the disk underperformed down to a missing shim allowing some lateral movement at the hub. Well that's my theory :D
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Re: old school Campy Shamal vs. Zipp 808

Postby acoggan on Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:21 am

Alex Simmons wrote:I've put the day the disk underperformed down to a missing shim allowing some lateral movement at the hub. Well that's my theory :D


Having measured a change in Crr (mu, technically) of similar magnitude when my cassette bearings went sour, I can believe that. However, that wouldn't explain the big difference you found on the 2nd occasion between the 808 and Shamal...that is what really inspired me to test Jim's wheel.

EDIT: So I got to thinking: your tubular 808 is shaped differently (supposed slightly more aerodynamically) than my clincher 808, and we tested with different width tires. If anything, though, those differences would be predicted to favor the 808 more in your tests than mine.

Coud it simply be due to the differing tread patterns of the two tires you used? If so, what does that say w/ respect to Zipp's dimpled tires?
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Re: old school Campy Shamal vs. Zipp 808

Postby Alex Simmons on Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:55 pm

acoggan wrote:Coud it simply be due to the differing tread patterns of the two tires you used? If so, what does that say w/ respect to Zipp's dimpled tires?

I'll never know - the 808 was a loaner, and the Shamal's tyre has since died.
All good fun - at least I got to select what was likely fastest option of the 3 choices I had and my backup wasn't bad either.

IIRC when I looked at Jayson's training data for hour record, I gave him the option of using his 808 or his loaner front disk (a newer Zipp than mine) as there wasn't much in it either, so it came down to if he felt any issues managing the front disk and holding good lines.
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